Heart and Hustle in Hamilton County

Is Housing in Hamilton County Really that Affordable? Part 1

October 08, 2021 Bridget Doherty Season 1 Episode 11
Is Housing in Hamilton County Really that Affordable? Part 1
Heart and Hustle in Hamilton County
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Heart and Hustle in Hamilton County
Is Housing in Hamilton County Really that Affordable? Part 1
Oct 08, 2021 Season 1 Episode 11
Bridget Doherty

The news lately has been filled with headlines around housing values and housing affordability.  In this episode of Heart and Hustle, we talk with three housing experts in who really tackle the question- Is housing affordable in Hamilton County, Oh?

Hamilton County Community Development's Interim Director Emily Carnahan, Liz Blum with the Community Building Institute at Xavier University, and Kristen Baker with Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) get to the heart of the conversation on whether our neighbors can afford to stay in the communities where they live. 

Join us in Part 1 of a 2 part conversation!

To learn more about Hamilton County, Ohio, our services and job openings, visit hamiltoncountyohio.gov.

Show Notes Transcript

The news lately has been filled with headlines around housing values and housing affordability.  In this episode of Heart and Hustle, we talk with three housing experts in who really tackle the question- Is housing affordable in Hamilton County, Oh?

Hamilton County Community Development's Interim Director Emily Carnahan, Liz Blum with the Community Building Institute at Xavier University, and Kristen Baker with Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) get to the heart of the conversation on whether our neighbors can afford to stay in the communities where they live. 

Join us in Part 1 of a 2 part conversation!

To learn more about Hamilton County, Ohio, our services and job openings, visit hamiltoncountyohio.gov.

Hello and welcome to hearten hustle in Hamilton County, a podcast about the people places and policies that form Hamilton County government. I'm your host, Jeff Alito. I'm county administrator with Hamilton County, and with me, as always is our communications manager Bridget Doherty. Hello, everybody. And this is an episode that I've been really excited about for a long time. Today we're going to talk about affordable housing, Hamilton County. in the very near future, we'll be receiving a report on the findings of five housing action plans. in the community. There's a pilot program that we ran out in Addison, Cheviot Deer Park, Norwood and Silverton, those are the first jurisdictions to participate. But in addition to that, the news has just been filled with stories about housing prices, property values, you can't open a national publication without seeing something about affordable housing. It's a huge issue nationally. And we are really fortunate, Bridget to have with us today, three experts in this field here in Hamilton County, we have Kristen Baker with the local initiative support coalition or Liske, as we know it, we have Liz Blum with the community building Institute. And we have Emily Carnahan, who is the interim director of our own Hamilton County Community Development. So welcome to heart and hustle and Hamilton County. Thanks for having us know, glad you all could be here. And you know, we were talking about this, I just want to, to our listeners, make sure that people understand that this is a huge issue. So we're going to try to hit this in two parts. This is part one today, where we're going to be setting the stage for what the problem is, and what the just the lay of the land about affordable housing. And then we're going to start in number issued or an episode number two, to go into what are we doing about it here in Hamilton County. So as we get started with that, I would imagine that there are a lot of folks out out there who are wondering about the organizations that we have with us here today. So Kristen, starting with you, if you'd like to just introduce yourself to to our listeners and talk a little bit about what Liske does here in the community. Thanks, Jeff. Happy to be with you today. So Liske is a national community development intermediary and financing organization. So we were founded to address the affordable housing challenges that exist in our country over 40 years ago by the Ford Foundation and other major philanthropic investors who said, you know, we know we need to provide different kinds of resources to support quality, affordable housing, and make sure that everyone has a place to live that is safe and healthy and, and appropriate for their needs. So we have been addressing that through primarily through lending and real estate transactions, supporting community development organizations, and partners and nonprofit developers who provide affordable housing options. But over the years, we've also realized that, you know, housing is maybe the centerpiece of community life in many ways. But there are lots of other parts of the community that need to be supported, particularly in disinvested communities are places that have been historically impacted by redlining or other sort of policies that really have cut off parts of the community and, and kind of concentrated poverty and made things more difficult. So that's really what we're here to do is support those community partners and really be a resource and a connection point for partners to come together around issues like housing, affordability, and shine a light on really kind of some of the things that many of us who might not see that everyday in our communities might not totally understand. So that's really an important part of our work as well. It's great, Kristen, thank you. And Liske, as we know, has been instrumental in some recent reports that have come out that have really helped define the affordable housing situation here in Hamilton County. We're gonna get to that a little bit later. Liz with community building Institute, Liz, welcome, and no stranger to Hamilton County, certainly. So if you could just tell us a little bit about what the community building Institute does for Hamilton County. Absolutely. Glad to be here today. Thanks, everybody, for having us. So the community building Institute at Xavier University, it's really a really great place to be able to work. We are sort of a planning and research organization that comes alongside people like list, we've worked with county staff on a number of projects. And I always say that we're a learning organization, it's appropriate to be at a university. Because when the community needs to think about something a little bit more deeply, with an asset based lens, we get to do a lot of that work. We do a lot of original research. We do a lot of demographic and market research. And then think about what does that mean to communities and what does that mean to the kinds of programs and projects that need to move forward so that communities get what they want out of the great resources that are available. So that's a little bit about what we do. And I would be remiss if I did not thank you for all the work that you've done just recently, helping us with things like our comprehensive economic development strategy, etc. So thanks for your help with that, Liz. And thanks for being here today. We learn a lot every time we delve into something it's really fun. Absolutely. And then, always, every one of these sessions we do typically, we focus on people doing work in the county organization as well. And we have Emily Carnahan, with us today, who is the Interim Director of Community Development. Emily, welcome, and talk to us just a little bit about the role of community development and what community development does for the county organization. Yeah, thanks, Jeff. Glad to be here. So at its most basic essence, community development, we run the county's HUD entitlement grants, which are Acme Development Block Grant, home and ESG. We also currently have cares act dollars through CDBG and ESG. And we also recently signed an agreement for our home AARP American rescue plan dollar. So there's really a lot of opportunity to be had with those dollars. Liske, and CBI have been really great partners recently, you know, helping us program a lot of those dollars and try to be as impactful as possible for the communities and spending that funding. Excellent. Thanks, Emily. So this is a huge topic, right? So let's just go ahead and get into it. So we hear about the term affordable housing a lot and you hear affordable housing, you hear things like workforce housing. And I think there's some confusion out there amongst the public about what is affordable housing, and even unfortunately, maybe it has gotten to the point where some folks think, how does this relate to me? And in today's economy, when we've seen these rising housing prices, we've seen property values increasing? And it seems that for this is a conversation that really impacts everybody. So if you could, let's just start with the question of what is affordable housing? And why is it important in a community? It's a really important question, Jeff, and something that the more we talk about it, the more we realize that there are definitely a lot of misconceptions. You know, at its core, what we're really saying about affordability is that no one should spend more than 30% of their monthly income on their housing costs. So when you put that in terms of real dollars, when you think about, you know, the median income for county residents is around 40 $45,000, let's say, you know, that's a pretty, that's not that does not align, let's say, with the current prices in the housing market, particularly on the for sale side or rental at market rate. So that's tough. And I think that that's really how we need people to think about this. It's not about capital, a affordable housing that you think of, and really has a lot of unfortunate negative connotations. I think, for folks that it's what is, you know, typically publicly subsidized. And I think is, it really is unfortunate, because we know that public housing is a critical part of our community's infrastructure, it protects seniors, it provides housing for people who are unable to work potentially, because of their, you know, health status, things like that. And for families, it's important to so we have to move away from I think, sort of thinking about it as somebody else's problem. And this is really an issue for all of us to consider, and is also the really, the core of it, again, is about how much you're spending. And so when housing prices have escalated so precipitously in the last four or five years in our community, we are not really keeping pace with the wages that folks need to make to be able to do support that and I'll also add, you know, we talk about workforce housing, that's something you hear a lot about, that's really focused on people who are making, you know, which this is kind of wonky conversation, right? So I try to not talk about it with too many percentages or letters or abbreviations, but people who are at 80% of the area median income, so slightly under$50,000, let's say, folks that are working in jobs like customer service, or they're working in hospital facilities, not with a train certification per se, but playing really important roles right jobs that kept us going through COVID. Frankly, when we were not able to be out and about in the world the way we are used to those folks also have challenges finding housing. But I also want to point out that people who make less than that are also working so workforce housing really I think is something that's for everyone right when we think about it, but when we talk about it in our in the vernacular, we usually mean it's for people that are earning just under area median income. Got it. So Liz, when you think about Hamilton County and this obviously this is a national problem. The the dynamic that Kristen just laid out, how how are we faring in Hamilton County, compared to other jurisdictions, either in Ohio or just nationally? It is absolutely a national problem. I think that it's the conversation around affordable housing has been interesting in Hamilton County, because we believe ourselves to be a very affordable metropolitan area. We're not Boston, we're not San Francisco, we're not, you know, nobody has to pay $4,000 a month for an apartment. And so I think for a long time, it was hard for people locally to think about the fact that there are people in Hamilton County who can't find apartments or homes that they can afford at 30% of their income. That seemed unusual to people, because we saw lots of housing in poor condition. We know that we're not Boston. And so how can this be that really was in some ways the motivation behind the original research that we did, it was like, right, so how do we get down to the details and figure out whether there really is an issue? I think the issue in Hamilton County isn't so much that middle class and middle income families can't find affordable housing. Although I think as market rates on home sales have appreciated, that's becoming less true. But I think it is, for folks who are in low wage jobs, it's really hard to find an apartment, it's hard to find an apartment for under $700 a month, which is what you can afford if you're making $15 an hour. That's decent. And that's the issue for us locally. For us locally. It's about how do we how do we make sure that there's adequate housing for people making $15 an hour and less, and four, and increasingly, as you watch home values go up, and you said it at the beginning of the discussion, home values are going up all over the county. And so it's becoming increasingly harder. I think, for first time homebuyers who want to find a house for less than $200,000. That used to not be a big deal. It is a big deal. Now, you know, that really resonates with me, because, you know, we're seeing, you know, almost daily in the newspapers, and sometimes in the national press, Cincinnati and Hamilton County is killing it. As far as affordability with rental, we're starting to get on these, you know, top 10 lists, which is really a point of pride for a lot of people. So, so that totally makes sense to me, what's the housing deficiency that your groups are seeing in Hamilton County? So I think it is a good thing, and a lot of political jurisdictions are happy when they see those appraising property values. I know that's true in Cheviot, it's true in Norwood places that Jeff indicated we've just been working in. But the downside of that is there are people who are living in those communities who have been living in those communities for a long time, who suddenly are being priced out of their own communities. And that's the challenge. And I think, you know, everybody has a story about I've got plenty of 20 somethings, and you want them to have affordable housing, you don't want them, you tell your 20 something, don't spend too much money on rent, it's exactly what you're telling them is find housing that you can afford, and still have a sustainable budget in your household. That's really what this is about. And so I think increasingly, people are having a hard time finding housing in the neighborhoods they grew up in and the communities they grew up, and because suddenly, a two bedroom in Silverton is worth $250,000. That's not a mortgage, my 20 something can afford right now. Right. And I would add to that, you know, we're seeing our communities changing, right, folks who have historically perhaps lived inside the city of Cincinnati, closer to the urban core have been priced out, moved out moved along. And they're joining communities that are are further away from the city center, and wonderful first, you know, first suburb jurisdictions, places where there's lots of walkability and amenities and, you know, more single family housing than we see inside the city of Cincinnati, particularly near downtown. But we also have to be prepared to support and welcome and accommodate our new neighbors, right with the kinds of services and with the kind of resources that we need to have, you know, communities mixed income, mixed density, which, you know, for people who don't, again, live in the housing world, what we're saying is we want single family houses, we want some apartments, maybe we want some townhomes, some condominiums places where also our seniors can stay in the communities where they want to be right And oftentimes, we communities are not always excited about changing some of the zoning or other other, you know, enabling tools that let us create that kind of housing because it's just not what we've seen in lots of parts of the county and it's new and it's unfamiliar. And so we really, I think, have a lot of opportunity to support that kind of housing around the community and people like being in you know, in these communities, so how do we help keep them there and help them become part of part of the community as well. Right? So Liz and Kristen, you both just mentioned in the course of your conversation, multiple different communities in the county. And for those who may be listening from outside of Hamilton County, we have 48 political subdivisions in Hamilton County, which by all indications is a relatively large number of smaller communities. And Emily, you manage the Community Development Block Grant Program, the house, the home grant program, the emergency shelter solutions grant program, on behalf of Hamilton County, we're going to be talking a little bit more about solutions and things that we're doing to help with this issue in our next episode, but talk a little bit about what you are hearing from these communities as you work with them on grant projects, etc. How is community development? Or what is Community Development hearing about the affordable housing situation in the course of your work? Yeah, it's it definitely comes up pretty frequently, especially as we talked communities about these housing plans. I think that, you know, like you mentioned, we have a lot of what we have very many smaller jurisdictions. And, frankly, something that we see quite often is that there's just a capacity issue. And that's why these housing action plans have been really helpful, at least so far, and that they kind of do some of that background legwork. You know, like, here's the data behind, you know, what is actually happening in your community, I think we've found that Liske and CBI have found through the course of their research and interviews that the community's look a little bit different than the people in them think they do the perception. So, you know, giving the, the smaller jurisdictions sort of the data and the tools, recommendations, you know, and then a big component of this is, you know, how can the county help with some of these things. So I think just trying to build some capacity, and actually being able to implement some, some different projects and programs to encourage, whether that's direct affordable housing, or, you know, building infrastructure to support additional housing. I don't have listen as a Christian Anything to add on that. But that's, that's, that's really where we come from and comprehend commute development. I just want to add, one of the things that I think was really surprising to to even to us who are fairly close to this issue is the way the market is changing. So in a lot of our communities, we're seeing a big increase of investment purchasing of single family homes, in particular by private companies buy real estate investment trust, or wreaths, as we call them, which rates purchase properties in communities where there's opportunity for them to make money. And so then they rent these properties back out, right, not, that's not all of these things are terrible, but many of them often are out of town, they're not particularly close to the properties. And you know, the other challenge in the county is that much of our housing stock is aging inside the city of Cincinnati, the housing stock is different because it was built pre World War Two. And so a lot of historic which has its own challenges, of course, but the quality is different things that were built post World War Two weren't built to last 100 years, right they were built to meet a need of folks returning back from the war so we we had a was different and that's what we see in a lot of our first ring communities as well. So they require some maintenance and investment that these companies sometimes are not going to do right because they're going to keep it able to rent and you know, make their profit, but they're not doing the maintenance that then eventually when that does come perhaps comes out of their hands and goes back into private ownership by a homeowner they have a lot more on their plate. So these are the kind of trends that I think it's really important for us to understand and what role these kinds of investors play in our housing market. We know that in one community and Cheviot, homeownership rate went down like 10% in the last five to 10 years, because just because of these kinds of investors coming in and purchasing the single family housing stock, so these are all things we really need to understand and then talk more about how do we respond. So in just playing off on the Christian, so you mentioned a decline in one community and we know that recently we got some census results that by all accounts were positive, right, Hamilton County, grew in population. How do we put that into the context of housing options here locally for us in Hamilton County. Hamilton County did grow which is a very good thing. Cheviot grew Norwood grew, Addison grew. All of that is good. I think the question I often want to talk to communities about as far as your next generation of homebuyer who's the next generation of folks who are living in your communities, again, back to this sort of narrative of what Hamilton County and Cincinnati are all about, you know, family's great place to raise your family, the fastest growing kind of household in Hamilton County. You are single people, and lots of the communities that are trying to figure out what to do next. Now, there are more millennials, there are more Gen Z years. And so the question becomes if that's the next generation of folks in your communities, what kind of housing do they want? And what kind of housing do they need? And how do we make sure that seniors have the kind of housing they need? So it's, it's I think it's this question about who lives in your community? And what do we need to do to serve them well, and to serve them in ways that are affordable for them? So what that means i think is, so I'm going to silver to now ag 47 is a new housing project, not that new anymore. It's a multifamily project in Silverton that's pretty new for them. And it really served a need, there are now millennials in that building and, and Gen Xers, whoever the next youngest group of people is. So I mean, I think it's about communities thinking about what are the kinds of housing types that young people are looking for, because young people are going to be your neighbors, and they are right now. And so I think that saying there's more singles, there's more seniors, there's more people who want different kinds of housing means you got to think about modernizing your housing stock. And I think that's a really important part of the conversation too. And that maybe means multifamily housing along your business districts. I mean, I think one of the ways that I connected the Said's, in the housing study that we did recently, is every community in Hamilton County wants a healthy business district, they want a coffee shop, they want to restaurant, we all want breweries, to do that you got to have people shopping in those places and being in those places. And that probably means more rooftops on your commercial corridors. And that's probably a good thing. And the other nice thing about that is there some obsolete retail spaces, some obsolete commercial spaces, some churches and schools that are no longer occupied, all of those real estate projects are opportunities, there are opportunities to do new kinds of housing in your communities, without disrupting the single family, neighborhoods and blocks that exist. Christian, I just want to note that the the population is changing around the country, right? We will we are moving towards. And I don't love this phrase, but it's the way we talk about it majority minority, right, we're going to see more many more bipoc people of color, black folks, you know, Latina acts, all of our neighbors are going to in the next 30 years, things are going to change. And so we also have to make sure that we are attending to those needs through housing as well. And that we are being communities that are inclusive and supportive of neighbors moving in that might not necessarily look look like they did 30 years ago, right in these communities. But these are still places that are, I think, leaning in to understanding how they need to as Liz is saying, you know, with supporting people who are single, a single, you know, single folks, a single Head of Household families, right, that we make sure that we're not just building one bedroom apartments, right, that we're not just building studios, which is a lot of what we see in new development these days. But we are thinking about family units, different cot, you know, different generations living together, there's lots of different opportunities, I think, for us to support and be the kind of community that we know, we know we're all going to be at a certain point in time. And let's get let's get on that, I think be really intentional now. And just as we continue to think about the the problem, one of the the reasons I was so excited to have all of you here today, and in particular Liske and CBI was, I think the the con, the local conversation on housing really started to I mean, it was going on before that, obviously you you all were heavily involved with it. But the study that was done just a few years ago and Kristen, you can correct me maybe it's longer than that now I can't remember 2017 2017 Okay, so we're going on four years now on the gap in affordable housing in Hamilton County, really started to accelerate the conversation and you started to hear more conversation in local communities, with our friends over at the city of Cincinnati, and then Hamilton County as well. So I didn't want to leave today's session before we took the opportunity to take a step back. And had you guys talk a little bit about what did that study? What was the purpose of that study? And what did it wind up showing was the the housing climate in Hamilton County. All talk big picture and then let let's dig in on the specifics because that is her specialty. So as I think was talked about a few minutes ago, you know, we know that we as a region, I think we're really particularly focused after the recession on repopulating. Again, the city of Cincinnati in particular bringing folks back into the urban core increasing the taxpayer base we know that is really important to having a healthy robust region and the city is the center of that. So We were really focused on market rate and inside the city of Cincinnati luxury as well as housing options. And and I think because we feel that we are a place that is affordable relative to other markets that it takes care of itself, right? Well, since it is a low cost of living community, this region is affordable. But it's not when you actually unpack that in communities. So the neighborhoods where Liske and CBI have worked inside the city of Cincinnati for the last 15 years, we knew that folks were struggling to find housing in community, right, that folks could not find housing that was meeting their needs. So we said we need to quantify this. And so that's really where CBI spent a good bit of time digging into the census data, which we're very excited to have more opportunity to manipulate that and update those figures, you know, once more of the data is released, and next year. So we know it's a little dated, but it's the best we have. So we have we have to sort of lean in on that. And we also have to recognize the anecdotally we hear this from folks and communities too, right. So even if you don't like the numbers, we know that our neighbors are struggling to find housing. So we found in that report that there are of about 40,000 households in Hamilton County as a whole that are in the very lowest income range in our again, going back to the wonky area median income, but folks that are making, let's say, less than $10,000 a year, which can you imagine making less than$10,000 a year, I mean, let's let's really dig in, we need to have some empathy here and understand how difficult that must be. Those there were 40,000 households that could not find housing, that would allow them to spend that 30% of their income on housing, they were severely cost burdened. So that means they were paying upwards of 80%. If you're paying 80% of your monthly income on your housing costs, what do you do when you get a flat tire or you your child needs school supplies or there's a you know, an urgent medical need that you need to take care of wheat people are living on the edge. And that's what we really came to realize that we need to help people understand this issue more deeply to be able to I think then figure out how do we get to those solutions together. But if we don't really explore that, that folks are doing a lot with a little and they're really challenged to find housing. And as housing costs increase, their wages are not increasing, right, wages are staying flat. And that does not work either. So So I will veer off slightly just to say that this is not just a housing supply issue, right. This is also a workforce issue. This is how do we have jobs that are of a quality that are paying a wage that allows households to have some ability to build wealth and to support their families in meaningful ways. So I really love that the county is having this kind of conversation, because at a county level, you know, part of my job is trying to explain what the county does. And we affect and our partners and so many aspects of what you just talked about, you know, workforce, you know, with with our work on the web, right now, commissioners are very interested in keeping this topic front and center and a lot of their priorities. I you know, either with the general fund budget or you know, definitely with the American rescue plan dollars that we're trying to figure out right now. So I won't get into the gory details of the the demographics, but I will say that the way that we approach the question was to say, who lives in Hamilton County? And how much do they make? And then how many housing units are in Hamilton County? And what do they cost either owner or renter units? And we stack those two things up together? And we said, Does everybody in the county, every person who lives here have a place they can find that they can pay 30% of their income for? And the answer was no. And we were surprised by that. And so that was really the impetus for this study, it really is just that simple. It is to say, and so this is really about providing, I think we used to think that if everybody had a job, they would be fine. As long as households had a job, they would be good to go. And I think what we're understanding now is that housing is every bit as important as a job, to have a safe, stable place to live is part of what helps you be a contributing citizen. And so the job is important. And the housing unit is important. And all of that to say that I'm back to my 20 somethings, and they hate it when I talk about them. You want how you want your household to be financially stable, and a job and a house that you can afford, I think are critical elements of that. So that's really what this is all about. When that gets right into the heart of recognizing that, you know, all the different subjects we talked about on this podcast are that the county and the city and local governments are involved in. It's not just about housing programs. It's not just about workforce development programs, about how all these things fit together, right it it hits as much as our our site readiness program. I mean that we have a we're trying to work with through different economic development agencies to bring in new manufacturers and make sure that we're creating an environment where there are well good paying jobs in Hamilton County so that people can, as you, as you said, make a living at the same time that they are affording a good place a good safe place to live and doing all the other things they need to do put their kids through school, etc. I mean, it's about it's about making sure that residents of Hamilton County have what they need, right. And when you buy, buy or rent a house, it's not just the bricks and sticks, it's your neighbors, it's the stores, you have options to shop out into the schools that you have options to shop at. It's whether you're close to a bus line so that you can get around or whether you're close to job. So I mean, when you buy that address you there's a whole big thing that comes with that. And I think that from a public sector standpoint, the objective is does everybody who lives here have what they need. And I think that understanding the housing piece of that has become a really important part of the equation. Question for you, as we start to wrap up here, but it would be remiss if I did not ask, how has COVID impacted this? Is this is the impact of COVID on this question, is a blip on the radar, or is this a long sustained impact on the housing situation? So COVID has put to say COVID put a you know, a big roadblock up in front of this issue is an understatement. I think we still do not know the impact, I think long term of how COVID will will will harm households particularly again, folks that have our you know, income insecure and are housing insecure. Because now you know, we had the eviction moratorium that was in place, we had all sorts of wonderful resources from the cares act and other federal tools at our disposal that we still need to keep working on leveraging and getting those dollars out the door to help households. But with the we know that this was also a way that that particularly unscrupulous landlords were able to take advantage of old vulnerable households. And even with a moratorium in place, we still know folks were being pulled out of their homes. And that also impacts credit that impacts your ability to secure housing in the future, right like this. It all feeds in and you know, what we've heard from our partners at Community Action Agency is that huge percentage of folks that were coming in for assistance, particularly around rental or, you know, mortgage support, if they were approaching foreclosure, these are folks that have never requested support or required that in the past. So this is, you know, I think if people want to, you know, some sometimes we vilify poor folks especially right. And I think that to say that this is also something that impacted people who are not participating in public support tools in the past is really important thing for us to recognize that there are a lot of folks that are struggling, it's invisible, we don't always know it. You don't see it. As as but I think that you, in fact, we heard, you know, last week or at a meeting that you know, homelessness actually went down in the county last year. But we're going to start to see an increase in family homelessness, we're going to start to see more people that are really struggling because the the, the impacts are long lasting, and and we hear a lot about people going back to work, or not taking jobs going back to work. We have a lot of vacant jobs right now, especially in service sector industries. And I think that also plays a role in housing, of course, but it's also recognizing, again, are these jobs paying what folks need? And are we are they receiving the benefits or the supports that they need? You can't hire someone to work 15 hours a week, you know, people really need, you know, we need to hold our employers to the standard of, of making sure that our jobs are quality so that folks can maintain their housing. So yes, COVID has been a disaster, frankly. And I think that we still will feel this for the next five to 10 years. So I think, Christine, that's a great cap to put on this in terms of just understanding that this problem is so incredibly wide ranging. It impacts everybody in this community from a corporate CEO who's looking to make sure that he's got the workforce he needs, in the community, to families, to single parents to people who are struggling with with homelessness. Everybody in this community has an interest in this conversation. And we I think did a great job today of talking about how wide ranging this issue is, how important it is. And I'm thrilled because I get to have the three of you back next time to talk about some of the things that your organizations are doing and what Hamilton County is doing to respond to the challenge. So Kristin, Liz, Emily, thanks so much for being with us today. Really enjoyed our time together and I want to thank all of you for listening to Episode 11 of heart and hustle in Hamilton County. Just a reminder to subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify and other providers. You can also find the podcast on our website, Hamilton County ohio.gov on the county administrator's page. So on behalf of my co host Bridget Doherty, I will see you next time on heart and hustle in Hamilton County.